Brad Cook chats with authors Justin Berger and Jamie Benning about their Star Wars book Return of the Jedi Unauthorized Timeline 1976 – 2023…
Recent years have witnessed the 40th anniversaries of the theatrical releases of many classic genre films from the 1970s and 80s. Aside from reminding Gen Xers of their mortality, those milestones have also shown how many of those movies still resonate with their fans and have gained plenty of new ones over the years.
While last year was the 40th anniversary of the summer of 1982, arguably the greatest year for genre films during that era, 1983 wasn’t a slouch either. The main attraction that year was, of course, Return of the Jedi, which was released on May 25.
The highly anticipated climax to the original Star Wars trilogy was the top film of 1983, grossing nearly half a billion dollars worldwide and earning four Academy Award nominations. The film went home empty-handed at the Oscars, except for a Special Achievement Academy Award for the main guys running the show at Industrial Light & Magic.
Hardcore fans may think they know everything about the film, but I’m willing to bet they’ll learn a thing or two (or, most likely, more) when they sink their teeth into Return of the Jedi Unauthorized Timeline 1976-2023. It’s a 281-page in-depth examination of the making of the film, its release, and its worldwide impact. And, yes, it includes information through the first part of this year.
Justin Berger, who previously wrote an unauthorized timeline book for The Empire Strikes Back, authored this new tome with Jamie Benning, who has interviewed many people associated with the Star Wars movies, and other well-remembered genre films from that era, on his Filmumentaries podcast. ROTJ producer Jim Bloom provided a special introduction.
What’s the background each of you brought to this project?
Berger: I’ve been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, so Star Wars has always been there. Prior to writing The Empire Strikes Back Unauthorized Timeline book, which came out in 2020, I was primarily an independent filmmaker, artist manager, and publicist.
Writing was very familiar to me and so when the idea for the Timeline book sparked, it wasn’t much of a stretch for me to put it all together. Aside from the fact that I love the original Star Wars trilogy, I’ve always been fascinated by the behind-the-scenes of my favorite films.
These timeline books have really been an extension of that. My background in filmmaking has been very helpful in just understanding the logistics and nomenclature of the material. So it was never foreign to me and gave me insight into putting the books together and presenting the information in a format that was both easy to understand for the common reader but also had the technical information available for the people like myself who understood the nuances of the filmmaking process.
Benning: I’m a life-long fan of Star Wars. The first three films, that is. I’ve also gone on to make several documentaries (unofficial) on each of those three movies. Then in 2020 I started a film history podcast. And while it’s not a Star Wars podcast, I do use Star Wars as the gateway to talk about other films with the artists that worked on them. I’ve been very fortunate to talk to people whose names have been in my head since I was five years old. People like Dennis Muren, Ken Ralston and Mike Pangrazio.
Justin, you created an unauthorized timeline for The Empire Strikes Back What made you decide to return to that format for Jedi?
Berger: It was actually Jamie who inspired the Jedi Timeline book. I really thought of the Empire one as a one-shot deal. I spent a year researching and building it and it was a lot of work. A total labor of love. I wasn’t sure I had it in me to do that again with Jedi – or even Star Wars.
But one day I received a private message from Jamie on Twitter (we followed each other and knew of each other, but we didn’t have any sort of personal connection). He asked me if I had planned on doing a timeline book for Jedi. He had seen my Empire book and at the time was putting out dates on Twitter with Jedi content as the 40th Anniversary was approaching the following year (this was in 2022).
I told him that I wasn’t really sure if I wanted to, but once we started discussing it, I felt that Jamie would be a great partner to make the book with. He shared the same love of Star Wars and behind-the-scenes content that I did and so I took a proverbial leap of faith and we just started working on it together.
That decision has literally changed my life for the better. Now, Jamie and I are good friends and are in the process of re-releasing the Empire book as a revised and expanded edition as well as having plans to do not just Star Wars but potentially other films outside of Star Wars as part of a “Timeline Series” of books. It’s pretty exciting!
Justin, any plans for an unauthorized timeline book for the first movie, as well as any other films?
Berger: Yes, as I mentioned above, we are planning to do a Star Wars book – probably for the 50th anniversary of the film (which gives us plenty of time to put it together). I’m not sure if we’ll do timeline books for the prequels.
I think what drew us together was our mutual love of the original trilogy and the films we both grew up with. We’re more interested in doing books for those other films of that era than anything later. But you never know – life is unpredictable. I didn’t think I would do a book for Jedi and yet here we are.
Jamie, how did you get involved in this project with Justin?
Benning: I was tweeting some dates about RotJ‘s production in 1982 and thought it would make a great book. I then remembered that Justin had already made an Empire timeline book.
I liked what he had done but felt I could build upon what he’d made if we worked on a Jedi book together. I could bring in my contacts, my knowledge and my podcast interviews, so I approached Justin. It was our first real interaction despite already following each other on Twitter.
And within about 24 hours, he agreed that it was a great idea. We had one year if we were going to hit the 40th anniversary.
Jamie, you previously did several what you call “filmumentaries” and now you have a podcast where you interview many prominent names from the days of 70s and 80s genre films. How did that background help you work with Justin on this book?
Benning: Just by being entrenched in that world and by being able to use my connections, knowledge and back catalog of videos and podcast interviews, I was able to bring a different level of context and complexity to the book.
I saw that both of you were adding content to the book until the last minute. What was that experience like?
Berger: Harrowing. Our deadline was fast approaching and we kept finding dates and information to include in the book. It was a bit stressful, but all-in-all I think we worked well under pressure and it all made the book that much better.
Jamie brought a lot of creative ideas to the table and helped really shape the style and feel of the Jedi book. When you compare it to the Empire book, you can really see how much better it is in terms of aesthetics and layout. That’s why we want to re-issue the Empire book with that added style and formatting to make it a better book and make it more in line with the Jedi book.
Benning: It was fun throughout but did get very tight at the end. But like any creative endeavor, you eventually have to release it into the world and accept that, without doubt, you are going to find something that you would love to have included.
How has the reception to the book been so far?
Berger: Really amazing. We couldn’t be happier with the responses. People are buying it and tweeting about it, posting photos of it, and are really loving it. It just makes me very happy to have that kind of interaction with people who are enjoying it.
When I originally made the Empire book, it was more for myself, to be honest. It was something I wanted to have on my bookshelf. I knew other people would like it, of course, but it wasn’t really something I was concerned with as much as I just wanted to make it for myself.
With the Jedi book, I felt like we were putting it together as fans for fans. And that has really shown through people telling us how well it’s researched and put together. We have people telling us that it’s sitting on their bookshelves next to the Rinzler books and vintage Lucasfilm making-of books. That’s a true honor to hear that. I don’t think I could ask for anything better, to be honest.
I’m really grateful to anyone who buys the book. It means a lot that other Star Wars fans like me are getting it and finding it as enjoyable, useful, and informative as we intended it to be. It’s still a labor of love. We did this book for the past year while having day jobs, families, and all the other stuff life likes to throw at us. It was done as a hobby of sorts – but with a lot of love and passion.
We’d just love to be able to get to a point where we can focus more time and energy into books like this as our main gig rather than something we fit into our regular lives. It’s something we’ve both enjoyed creating and no matter what happens, I know that Jamie and I will be creating together for a long time to come because we both love to do it, regardless if it makes us money or not.
Benning: The reception has been very positive. Many of my followers on Twitter and listeners of the podcast have bought it, so the feedback has been quick and friendly. One of the biggest buzzes I’ve got so far is seeing crew members of the film, like Dave Barclay, Toby Philpott and John Coppinger, holding our book. Everyone has been so positive and supportive.
What’s the personal history each of you has with Star Wars?
Berger: Having been born in the mid-70s, it was just part of the landscape growing up. I think what Star Wars offered me personally was a mythology that shaped my understanding of the human condition. As a child, that quintessential battle between good and evil was so stark in the Star Wars trilogy that it helped shape me as a person.
I resonated with Luke Skywalker and Han Solo – and even Princess Leia. Star Wars was very simplistic in its presentation. You knew who the good guys were and who the bad guys were from the get-go. This continued through all 3 films and by the end it felt good to see the good guys win and bad guys lose – and to see Darth Vader redeemed.
Empire has always been my favorite of the 3 because it always felt denser. The stakes were higher in that film and the character development was substantial compared to the other two.
Jedi was a great way to wrap everything up though. It’s not without its flaws, of course, but to say Jedi is my least favorite of the original Star Wars films is like saying it’s my least favorite Picasso painting. Even though it’s not the best, it’s still pretty damn good!
But I digress — growing out of Star Wars was inevitable and even though it went in and out of my life over the years, it was still very much a part of my DNA. By the 90s, it was not something I was focused on as much until the Special Editions came out. Like everyone else, I was very excited about seeing the films on the big screen with new scenes and special effects.
Unfortunately, my excitement dissipated after seeing them. I was not too keen on most of Lucas’ changes to the films and much preferred the ones I had grown up with. Then the prequels came and went, leaving a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. I saw them all in the theater of course, but by the time Revenge of the Sith was over, I concluded that Star Wars was done and that would be that.
Of course, that wasn’t the case. Even though it was still a part of my life, it really wasn’t a main focal point until The Force Awakens was announced. Again, like most people, my interest in Star Wars was reignited in a big way and I found myself buying the vintage Kenner toys, ephemera from the 70s and 80s, and just getting back into that Star Wars state of mind, you could say.
From there it just blossomed into an all-out love affair. I felt like I did as a kid. Star Wars was fun, fresh, and exciting again. I ended up as Producer on an independent web series called The Kenobi Chronicles (that didn’t end up going anywhere), got married and had a couple of 501st members at my wedding as stormtroopers, joined a ton of Star Wars Facebook groups (where the impetus for TESB Timeline book was born), and then wrote that book.
And here I am so many years later with a second Star Wars timeline book up for sale and a third in the works. Things have definitely come full circle in my life, and I couldn’t be happier.
Benning: I was born in 1976 so I have no memory of a time before Star Wars. It was all around me as a young kid. I had the Palitoy/Kenner toys, the bed cover, the posters, the soundtrack. It was my world as a young boy.
What are your memories of seeing Return of the Jedi in the theater in 1983?
Berger: I was eight, so the spectacle of it all was fantastic. At that age I wasn’t really cognizant of the subtlety of the Luke/Vader dynamics – more the broad strokes – but I remember loving the Ewoks, the Speeder Bike chase, and the space battle.
It’s more or less flashes of memories for me since I was so young, but I do remember that Star Wars consumed me for a solid year or more after that. I remember getting the Ewok Village for Christmas that year and buying up books, comics, read-along tapes – anything and everything I could get my hands on that related to Jedi and/or Star Wars in general. It was definitely the peak of my childhood Star Wars life.
Benning: For my 7th birthday, my parents took me (plus my sister and my cousins) to see Return of the Jedi at the Dominion theatre in London. It was one of the biggest screens in the UK at the time.
Before we saw the film, I was taken to Hamleys, the renowned toy shop on London’s famous Regent Street. I was spoiled rotten. I got an AT-AT, a Snowspeeder, a Battle Damaged X-Wing and a bunch of the new Return of the Jedi figures.
I distinctly remember my cousin Stephen and I theorizing about the blackout figures on the action figure card-backs (which turned out to be the Ewoks, of course). Star Wars marketing was at a fever pitch at this point. I of course loved the movie and still remember it as THE best cinema experience.
What are your thoughts as you look back on the movie?
Berger: Making this timeline book has really given me a fresh perspective on the film. Like I mentioned previously, it’s my least favorite of the original trilogy, but still one of my favorite films overall. For a time I had wandered into the idea of Jedi being a cash-grab by Lucas and lacking the sophistication of Empire and the originality of Star Wars.
This was probably more because of things I had read online than anything else. But as I started researching for this book and exploring the making of the movie, I feel like I see it now in a different light. I can appreciate all of the blood, sweat, and tears that so many people (Lucas included) put into this movie.
It was far from a cash-grab and really was more about being a finale. An epic send-off. Lucas had of course promised us the moon of 12 Star Wars films in all, but then changed his mind and decided to end the saga with Jedi – for a myriad of reasons. So the film really presents as a Star Wars swan song of sorts.
Of course, at the time we all thought that was the end of Star Wars, so I think back then a lot of people had mixed feelings. As a kid I was just happy to see the movie and enjoy it. I wasn’t really aware of the gravity of there not being any other Star Wars films or what that meant.
As an adult I see it now with a lot of nostalgia, of course, and a fondness that I don’t think I had for a long time. I think I can enjoy it now almost as much as I did as that 8-year-old kid in the theater when I set aside my adult cynicism and critical mind and enjoy it for the ride it is.
I still think the Luke/Vader dynamic is some of the best Star Wars ever put on film. It really follows through with what was set up in Empire and pays it off wonderfully. There are a few cringe moments even now (more so in the Special Edition version), but overall I think it’s a great movie.
Benning: I can entirely understand why fans at the time were disappointed, particularly after the events of The Empire Strikes Back. But I still have a huge affection for the film. It’s all about being the right age at the right time.
And while people balk at the Ewoks and the “muppets” in Jabba’s palace. I still marvel at that giant slug, the exciting Sarlaac battle, epic dog fights in space and the tension between Luke, Vader and the Emperor. It’s the weakest of the three, but it still holds up.
What do you remember about the “dark times,” so to speak, when Star Wars went into hibernation for several years before the novels, comic books, and toys came back in the early to mid 90s?
Berger: It didn’t really affect me too much. By the late 80s I had moved on to GI Joe, Transformers, and He-Man. Funny enough, I almost saw Star Wars as “kids’ stuff” – even though I was still just a kid.
But I did get very excited about Timothy Zahn’s Heir to the Empire trilogy of books in the 90s and felt some of that SW excitement return – even if only for a couple of years before graduating high school and deciding that girls weren’t interested in Star Wars.
Benning: By 1986, I had grown out of Star Wars and was firmly into computers! But, oddly I got back into Star Wars in 1990, just before the “come-back.”
It happened after my school librarian put on an exhibition of the Kenner toys, backed with the Ralph McQuarrie portfolio paintings. My friends and I all started to talk about our love for those films and for the toys.
We soon discovered that several of us had held onto a bunch of Star Wars artifacts and we set about trawling through our attics/lofts. Not long after that in May 1991, the Timothy Zahn novels were released and my interest was ignited once again. Basically, I never looked back after that.
What are your thoughts on the prequel era and all the ancillary novels, comic books, TV shows, and video games of that time period versus this era with the sequels and all the new novels, comic books, TV shows, and video games?
Berger: The prequel era hit when I was in my mid 20s. I wasn’t really into Star Wars as deeply as I had been as a kid – or even as I am now – and so other than the movies, I wasn’t really focused on anything else that was coming out at the time. I think I bought a couple of reissued Empire action figures at the time – and the Force FX Luke/Anakin Skywalker lightsaber (that was and is still pretty awesome), but for the most part I felt a little Star Wars fatigue.
Benning: For me, Star Wars always had mystery. It didn’t get bogged down in explaining everything. I always enjoyed the Jedi comic when I was a kid as if it were some alternate universe version: “what could have been.”
Despite being very excited for the prequels, I was bitterly disappointed. They lacked the heart and the enigmatic quality of the originals. By then, though, my interest was firmly in the “making of” the films rather than the films themselves.
I’d certainly enjoyed Shadows of the Empire on the N64 and the Dark Empire comics before that. But, again, it was all just hypothetical Star Wars. It didn’t really fit within those original films in the way that I knew them.
In many ways, that’s how I see the Disney films and shows, though now I get to enjoy them through my kids’ reactions. I really enjoyed the experience of taking my two young girls to see The Force Awakens. It was their Star Wars, and for that I was grateful.
The exception has been the first two series of The Mandalorian and the more adult series, Andor, which I really respect as a piece of writing, wonderfully executed by the legions of artists.
Anything else you want to add?
Berger: I just really want to say – again – THANK YOU to anyone and everyone who has bought the book. When you’re writing something like this and putting hours into it and doing the research and putting the proverbial blood, sweat, and tears into making something that you hope other people are going to enjoy – it’s very rewarding to see people tell you that they really do enjoy it. So, a thousand times – thank you! Lastly, may the Force be with all of you!
Benning: Only that you can buy the book from Amazon around the world. Check jeditimeline.com and you’ll see there is a link to a page telling you all of the regions where you can get it.
Thanks and MTFBWY… Always.
Brad Cook
