Harrison Abbott chats with The Dead Center director Billy Senese…
Recently we interviewed Jeremy Childs, star of festival favourite The Dead Center. As a quick reminder, the psychological thriller tells the story of Daniel Forrester, an emergency psychiatrist (played by Primer director Shane Curruth) who admits a violent amnesiac, known only as John Doe, into his care. Claiming that he is possessed and cannot die, John represents a fascinating enigma for Daniel, who slowly begins to doubt if his patient is really mentally ill or if he might actually be telling the truth. It’s an ambiguous, slow-burn the kind that keeps you guessing right up until its dramatic crescendo.
With the long gestating project finally available to buy on Blu-Ray and DVD, it’s now time to share our in-depth chat with its director Billy Senese. Extremely open and forthcoming, he shared so much about his mental-health horror – including the intensive research he carried out into Emergency Psych wards, his thoughts on how much scary movies should show, and even the tragedy that drove him to make the film in the first place. Heavy spoilers follow.
Thank you for doing this. I was wondering if we could kick things off by talking about your inspirations for the project. I know that you have a personal connection to the story, would you be willing to open up about that a little?
Of course. I have the usual cinematic and artistic [touchstones] that inspire every filmmaker, but for this particular project it was more about those [personal] connections you mentioned. A few people close to me have dealt with mental health issues in their lives and this one good friend of mine didn’t get the treatment that he sorely needed. In the end, he died of an accidental overdose.
I think that really affected me. He was only 35 when it happened. You know, if you’re grandpa dies it’s obviously very sad, but at the same time it’s kind of in the ”right order’’ and to a degree it should be expected. But when someone that young dies there’s a scary randomness to it.
A lot of people warn you about the grief you experience when someone passes, but we rarely talk about that madness. The difficulty of wrapping your head around it all. I think that was the starting point for the script. It obviously evolved beyond that theme, but it was the starting point.
And was it emotionally taxing to channel those feelings into your work, or did you find it to be more cathartic?
A bit of both to be honest. I think turning my experiences into art is the way that I kind of make sense of them. For context, this all happened 10 years ago, and around that time I made a short called The Suicide Tapes [which] helped me process my grief and confusion. With The Dead Center I’ve basically just revisited that old experience.
It did bring out some baggage that I wasn’t aware of though. Like, I found myself wondering what would have happened to my friend if he got the treatment he needed. Would it have played out differently? That was a thought that hadn’t crossed my mind until now.
That happens sometimes when you’re making movies, because it can be such an instinctive process. Don’t get me wrong, it can also be cerebral and deliberate, but often you don’t know what you’re thinking until you pick up the pieces afterwards. In this case, I found myself wondering why I was making a movie about mental health and the lack of support that’s available to people. I think I eventually came to the conclusion that it was probably because, deep down, I thought my friend should have gotten better treatment and I’m still frustrated about that.
So if that’s what motivated you to tell a story about mental health, can I ask why you specifically choose to set the film in an emergency psych ward, as opposed to a traditional hospital? They’re very distinct environments and they operate in totally different ways. What drew you to this world?
In a way I kind of stumbled upon it. I read this book called Danger to Self and it was a deep dive into the emergency psych sector. It gave an overview of the history of state institutions: how it used to be that people would get three meals a day and a place to sleep if they had mental health problems.
But then – I think it was during Reagan’s administration – a lot of those facilities were scrapped and their patients were effectively dumped out onto the streets. They had nowhere to go, and emergency psych was born out of a need to fill that void.
If I’m understanding it right, the basic principle behind emergency psych services is that they only come into play during crises and even then, they only offer brief stays of two or three nights. It’s kind of like they’re constantly fighting fires, rather than offering long term care or lasting solutions.
Pretty much. The other interesting thing is that people can be admitted involuntarily, so long as they are posing an immediate danger to either themselves or others. I guess in California it’s called the 5150 code. Anyway, the book talks about how they were meant to be used in crises like you said, but then people learned the game and would start to come in claiming to have sucidal thoughts so that they’d get a bed and some food for three days.
On the other side of that coin, the doctors would also cheat the system, admitting people they shouldn’t for financial reasons. So it was all pretty fucked up! [Laughs] Anyway, the book talks about all that history and like you, I wasn’t especially familiar with any of it. But it seemed like the perfect setting for a horror film!
It feels very authentically realised as well, what with all the medical jargon and the discussions around the ethical issues and regulations that these professionals have to be mindful of. What kind of research went into getting that part of the script nailed down?
I got in touch with Paul Linde, the author of Danger to Self. He came on as a consultant, got to read through early drafts of the script and gave me really helpful technical notes. Anything I do, I want to try and make it feel as grounded as possible and that means going the extra step.
It certainly does feel grounded and immersive, especially with the stripped back aesthetic you’ve used. How do you think that aspect of realism fits in with the supernatural element of the movie?
Well it’s just the path that I’ve chosen to go down really. It feels like I’ve done it a couple of times now: this sort of magical realism. I guess I’m interested in believable characters and everyday environments, but I also like introducing the paranormal. Someone who’s really good at that is [Haruki] Murakami. His books are so well grounded and immersive, but there’s always this strangeness weaved into them as well. I don’t know how he does it, it seems almost impossible to me.
You’re right though, you have to be very careful balancing these things, or else it all falls apart. I think the key is to perfect the style and atmosphere, so that the supernatural elements don’t feel [silly] or out of place. A bit like how The Exorcist does it.
I was literally about to mention Exorcist 3! Tonally and thematically it feels quite similar to your movie.
The Exorcist is a really grounded film that just happens to be about a demon from hell [laughs]. That’s what makes it so terrifying! Maybe I’m trying to achieve something similar. It’s definitely a challenge, especially when you’re working in a genre like this. You have to be careful about how far you take things, how much you want explain and so on.
Yeah, I was actually wondering how you struck that balance in terms of how much exposition you wanted to give. Because we don’t find out too much about what’s going on, but we do get a few clues scattered here and there.
Again, you’ve gotta be careful. It’s a real give and take. If you don’t give the audience enough to go on, then they get frustrated and bored. But on the other hand if you over-explain everything then you end up making Leprechaun 3.
Was there ever a version of the script that delved deeper into the lore then, or did you always know when to keep it vague and ambigous?
It’s funny, I don’t remember what we changed between drafts. I’m trying to think if we ever gave more away in terms of the story. What I can say is that we did cut some stuff out in post.
Oh really? Like what?
I had a lot more footage on the table that didn’t make it in. The killings were originally much more explicit, and we’d show the soul-sucking with all these really cool in-camera effects. But that stuff just didn’t fit the tone we were going for. It got a little stupid and you weren’t as scared anymore.
So you were kind of going for a Jaws effect?
Exactly! You know, I haven’t seen It: Chapter 2 yet but I loved the first one. It was a really great adventure story, almost like an R-Rated amblin film! Having said that, they showed so much with their effects and the creatures that it stopped being frightening after a while. I didn’t want to slip into that [mistake].
So to answer your question, I don’t think we ever had a version of the script that was any more clear-cut in terms of the narrative. But we did pull back on showing some of the supernatural attacks. I wanted to keep it ambiguous because, to me, the Entity was evocative of those things that we don’t understand about the world – like the inner workings of the mind, why we’re here and what happens after we die.
I think Edward, the investigator character in the movie, is a great window into that viewpoint. Because he’s a man of certainty and truth and he has no idea what to do when confronted with these [unthinkable] concepts. The closer he gets to that mystery, the more questions he has, and the more he eventually unravels. It’s like he looks into the void, only to find more void, you know?
That reminds me of H.P Lovecraft in a lot of ways. It’s the kind of existential anxiety that one of his protagonists would suffer from. They’re often characters who are very rationally minded and can’t wrap their heads around the unspeakable things that they encounter. Was he an inspiration for you?
Honestly I haven’t read much Lovecraft, so I can’t really say that he was a big influence on me. However, funnily enough, there is one excerpt of his that I did include in my pitch when I was trying to get funding. It really encompassed what the movie was about. So I guess he must have connected with me in some sense!
The lead in the film is played by Shane Carruth, the man behind Primer and Upstream Color. What was it like directing another filmmaker? Did you share a creative intuition or did you ever have conflicting ideas?
Oh he was great! I think it was an experiment for him. I mean, he has acted before, but he’s never been the lead in somebody else’s project. As such, he got to see things from an entirely fresh perspective. After we wrapped, he told me about how much he learned and how he was going to use that knowledge to inform his own work.
Of course, he is still a director and he can’t turn that part of his brain off completely. So sure, he probably had more suggestions than the typical actor – we’d agree a lot and we’d disagree a lot – but he was always very respectful and he never took over.
That’s really cool to hear.
Yeah, he was 100% committed and just a real pleasure to work with.
Next, I was hoping we could talk a little about the music? Because I’m always curious as to how much of a steer filmmakers give to their composers. With this particular score there’s a distinctive coldness that I think really helps establish the mood. What kind of direction did you give to [composer] Jordan Lehning to end up with that result?
You know, every aspect of the film has an arc to me. I’m not just referring to the characters, but also to the camerawork, the editing and, of course, the music. Personally, I thought of that arc as a downward spiral, a descent into madness that ultimately [culminates] in the fateful dinner table scene.
So I kind of wanted every aspect of the filmmaking craft to feel like it was leading up to that inevitable conclusion, to sow the seeds of that insanity. That was basically my directive for everyone. I needed them to help me chart that journey.
In terms of the music, that actually meant that we didn’t use too much of it at first, because it was supposed to represent the madness that was slowly creeping in. But as we build towards that climatic event, it’s presence becomes more pronounced and it gets crazier.
In terms of touchstones, I did refer Jordan to Goblin’s work on Suspiria. It doesn’t really have much to do with the soundtrack of our movie and it’s in a completely different musical style, but what it does have is that sense of mania that I wanted to key into. I gave it to Jordan and said: ‘’this isn’t the style we’re going for, but it is the right feeling’’.
So you didn’t want him to imitate it, but you asked him to conjure up similar emotions?
Right. There were a couple of others I used as reference points too, like Under the Skin. That one is very alien and otherworldly, which is kind of what we were going for too.
On your instagram, you’ve been posting a lot of pictures and behind the scenes glimpse at the making of The Dead Center. How do you feel about sharing your process with others in this way?
Well all I can say is that I hope people get something out of it. I’ve heard several different takes on whether or not a director should be this open and forthcoming. For example, Lynch doesn’t appreciate how it [detracts] from the mystique of his process and he doesn’t want to tell people what it all means. He thinks it eliminates an important part of the viewing experience.
That’s always stuck with me a little bit and I agree with his point to a certain extent. I don’t think that the audience needs to know why I made the movie or what I was thinking at the time, because that’s not what cinema is about. I wouldn’t want to get in the way of their interpretation, you know?
At the same time, in this day and age you’ve got to be willing to sell yourself as an independent filmmaker. You’ve got to be active on these social media platforms and promote what you’re working on. It’s become part of the business side of things. I try to do it in a real, genuine way at least.
What I like about instagram in particular is how visual it is. You know, I can share a picture of something, without having to over-explain its signficance or spell anything out for you. It’s just: ”Here are some images that were inspiring to me, now you can think about how they relate to the film”
My final question is a really general one. What are you most excited for people to experience with The Dead Center?
As a viewer, I [enjoy] both arthouse films and more narrative driven fare, because I do like to think about stuff, but I also want to be immersed in a good story. So I hope that our movie resonates on both those levels – I hope that it’s open ended enough to generate discussion, but that it also works as a gripping and suspensefull thriller.
More than anything however, I just hope that people see it! I don’t want it to become another one of those obscure indies that gets lost in the shuffle of this over-saturated marketplace. Nowadays, there’s so much content out there and as a filmmaker you feel like you’re struggling to get noticed. Which is tough, especially after you’ve poured years of your life into something.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’d be happy if people just gave our movie a shot because I think they’d really get something out of it.
Many thanks to Billy Senese for taking the time for this interview.
The Dead Center is out on DVD and Blu-ray now.
Harrison Abbott
